The Presidential Election Petition Tribunal, PEPT, on Wednesday, September 11, 2019, dismissed the petition of Alhaji Atiku Abubaker, former vice president and presidential candidate of the Peoples Democratic Party, PDP, against the victory of President Muhammadu Buhari, who flew the flag of the All Progressives Congress, APC, in the last presidential election.
Dissatisfied with the ruling, Atiku has indicated that he would be heading to the Supreme Court on appeal, insisting that Buhari was declared winner in error and was not even qualified to contest in the first place. However, former Attorney General of Lagos State, Mr. Lawal Pedro, SAN, in this interview with AYODELE OLALERE in Lagos, bared his mind on various national issues, including the tribunal’s judgment, which confirmed the election of Buhari and Atiku’s decision to appeal the ruling. According to him, the former vice president’s quest is ‘dead on arrival’.
Over the years, the country has been battling with Boko Haram insurgency. Soldiers are being killed; the Islamic State is backing the group financially. While we are yet to solve that, banditry and kidnapping started. At first in the North but it has now spread to the South. There seems to be no solution. How do we solve these numerous problems?
In my view, the security architecture of the country would have to be restructured and this takes me to this issue of restructuring that people are clamouring for. What exactly are we restructuring? If we are not being hypocritical and dishonest with ourselves, there is no need to restructure Nigeria to ten states or regional bases. It is the system of governance that needs restructuring; it needs total restructuring.
How do you mean?
Yes, it (system of governance) needs total restructuring. When you have a system that is not working and encourages corruption that the government is trying to fight, it will be hard. It is system failure. We shouldn’t feel bad about it, people do exam, fail, repeat or do the exam again and come out high with first class. You can’t continue doing the same thing the same way and expect a different result. I believe with the present security system we have, we need to totally restructure the security architecture of this country.
The way we policed Nigeria in 1960, people have advanced from it. In the 80s, it was different, in the 90s, with the 911 incident, it is different now. There is no country in the world that does not have security challenges. But what are other countries doing that we are not doing? Those are the things we should be looking at.
The total restructuring of the security architecture is what we should do. Even if we are going to decentralise to ensure that power is given to some other low ranking officers to checkmate certain things, if the command structure we have is not working, we should devise another means. I believe there are experts on that so government should just look inward for them.
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You earlier said what we need is not regional restructuring but there are groups, especially Yoruba groups like Afenifere, which believe we should go back to a system where each region controls its resources. Will such work?
I would say that is still restructuring of governance. It still doesn’t mean the whole of Nigeria has now fallen apart. It did not fall apart in the past. People clamouring for that are more or less talking of either confederation, which some of us have said no to. Some will look at it as true federalism. We don’t have to practise the type of federalism United States of America practises.
We can evolve our own that suits us but there are certain elements that some of us that studied governance know. We know what true federalism is, that each state will be semi-autonomous on its own and will develop at its own pace. That is the type of federalism that has the basis of true federalism. If we can follow that, I don’t see any reason we should have problem.
If we can evolve our own to ensure this federalism plays out well and there is a Federal Character Commission Act provided for in the constitution. How far are we implementing it? If it is implemented to the latter, no one will be clamouring for each region to be on its own. The issue has to be addressed. We have in-built solution in our constitution.
Some don’t like it. I may not like it too because of issue of merit because when you are saying federal character, it brings the issue of quota but if that is what is going to reduce tension and clamour for self-determination, so be it. Those clamouring for self-determination, if their son is the president of Nigeria, will they be talking? They will not talk. If they are the ones that the mantle of power is dropped on their laps, and they begin to ensure their family and friends are put in government, will they be talking about restructuring? Nobody will be talking about it.
It means there is no balance?
That is it. Everybody feels they do not have a sense of belonging and believes they are being marginalised. If you want to see the highest level of discrimination, go to the United States of America, but they are surviving. It is because they have struk a balance. To me, there is an in-built solution in the constitution, but are we implementing it to the latter at the federal and state level?
But the same constitution has been blamed for the problems we have, because it was given to us by the military. There was a time former President Goodluck Jonathan organised a conference for the review of the constitution. Do you think the constitution needs to be reviewed so as to reduce the tension?
There is no perfect constitution and we should understand that. There can’t be and there is provision for amendment. That is why there is provision for it in Section 4 of the constitution. You can’t put everything in the constitution. Operators of the constitution must go with the spirit of the constitution. I agree the constitution has some issues with it, especially looking at the exclusive legislative list; there are certain things that even offend common sense. What is the issue of marriage that is local doing in the exclusive list? What is prison doing there?
Why will a state not have its own prison to put anybody that commits a state offence for him or her go to state prison. If the person commits a federal offence, he should go to a jail in federal prison in that state. But presently, a person that commits a state offence is taken to a federal prison and Federal Government money spent on such person. It’s a state court that convicted him so state fund should be spent on such person so that Federal Government would have more money to do other things and stop wasting money on federal prisons in states.
But many of the states cannot afford to finance and maintain such prisons?
All the states can finance that. Don’t let us deceive ourselves; it is a matter of priorities. Why must every new government embark on new projects and begin to do new 3,000 roads when the old ones that the former government did are in disrepair. A new government only needs to repair them. If it’s ten good roads we have, let them be of high standard.
You will agree with me that to build a new house compared with repairing an old one is expensive. If you go to the United Kingdom, all the houses people go there to buy were built in the 1800s. All government does is to white wash them and give them new look and people buy.
Going back to restructuring, the present government seems not be disposed to restructuring?
I don’t agree. They are, but they may be slow. It is because of the indices of politics. The type of restructuring that I stand by is restructuring of our education system, justice system and other systems. What kind of system do we have where you have a case in court but takes longer years for it to end? Five years or ten years, you are still in court on a particular case.
Now, if you go to the Supreme Court, they will give you a date for 2022, Court of Appeal is now giving date in 2020 or 2021. What sort of justice is that? Those are parts of the things that require restructuring. If enough is spent on the justice system and we achieve what I believe is an ideal thing, corruption will be reduced in this country. Make the justice system perfect, make sure anybody that has criminal matter, if he’s charged to court, within three to six months, judgment is delivered whether guilty or not. If he’s found guilty, he’s sentenced and that now becomes general rule.
Don’t you think anybody who wants to commit similar offence will think twice? But if he knows that if he’s caught and taken to court, it will take 12 years for the case to be concluded in court, he won’t bother. Today, if you catch somebody several times and take him to police station, he will ask you to charge him to court.
When we were growing up, for you to hear you are being taken to court, there is panic. There would be trepidation in you but now they ask you to take them to court with impunity, as if when they get to that court, it is freedom for them. In those days, they will beg you not to charge them to court right from the police station. That is the narrative we need to change. The same thing with civil matters, contracts.
How do you encourage investors, local and foreign, to invest in our nation when the mode of dispute resolution is archaic and slow? Nobody will come to invest. If anybody knows that if they put money in Nigeria for business and there is a breach of contracts and it gets to court, and within maximum of one year, they get judgment, the person will be encouraged. But when you have a system that you only know when you enter, you don’t know when you will exit; you will not want to invest.
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In this country, we can write fine report but to implement is the problem. There are some that you can’t even implement because it is alien to our culture and system. We should find out what is good for us and model it to suit our system. When you import something from a foreign country and bring it down here, it won’t work.
Let me give an example. The last time I was in the United States, after eating, somebody said I should give tips. I asked if that was part of what I ate but they said it was part of their culture. They said I must tip them after I had paid for what I ate. In fact, I didn’t want to pay but my friend who took me there paid from his pocket. That is their culture which they have institutionalised. If you do that here, they will say it’s either a bribe or corruption. They will say you have engaged in corruption for services you have rendered. We should be able to work out what suits our culture.
You mentioned the issue of the justice system. Where do we lay the blame because lawyers have been accused of delaying cases in court so as to favour their clients? As a senior lawyer, would you agree to such accusation?
It is everybody I will blame, every stakeholder shares in the blame. We can’t lay the blame on the doorsteps of only lawyers. It’s everybody. If the government has resolved for us to operate in a particular way because law is made for man, and not man made for law, we will follow it. I am involved in election petitions, no matter what, I am asked to appear weekend to continue hearing because the election petition has timelines.
The rules and the law put it at 180 days for it to be completed at the tribunal. The issue of fair hearing does not apply. For me, I have to cancel all social events for that weekend to be in court. If we can do that for election petition, and it’s done for other cases, we will begin to take the justice system as business. Even for us lawyers, it’s a business.
With the approach of the present government, by the end of the eight years of President Buhari, do you think the country would have made any appreciable progress?
I would appreciate where they are coming from and everybody should appreciate that. The first four years have been turbulent; and now they are just in half of the first year of the second term. I think they are doing something and I always tell people that it is easier to destroy than to build. This entire building we are in, if you give me contract to bring it down, it doesn’t take me two hours. I will just rent a caterpillar and bring it down.
Ask me to put it back; it will take long time for me to complete it. It’s easier to criticise but give those criticising the opportunity to do it, they will perform woefully. We should appreciate people that are in government. I would have preferred those who are in government to render service and not use governance as a means of enriching themselves.
The culture also supports it because people expect you to go there and pilfer money. I would have preferred to have people, who have gone there to serve and be willing to make sacrifice. People who should be there are those who have done something in their area of specialisation and achieved, not somebody who has not even controlled two staff in his life and suddenly because he knows somebody, he gets there.
The issue of xenophobic attack is ranging. South African government has said they will not compensate victims. Will you advise Nigerian government to sue the South Africans before the International Criminal Court of Justice and what are the likely outcomes of such a move?
This should be resolved diplomatically. Even where they are paying compensation, we should not make it an issue to be blown up. Is it the government action or negligence of government that caused it? Whose right has been infringed upon? Is it Nigeria as a country or individual Nigerians that have been affected? Nigerian government should support those that have been affected by providing lawyers and financial assistance.
But Nigerian government can sue on behalf of those affected?
Yes. They can and they should and even engage experienced counsel for them. There is an issue of breach of right, assault, injury, deaths and South African government wants to claim unknown South Africans did it. Investigations should be conducted and some people should be made responsible for their actions.
However, it is not a wrong caused by a state or country against another country. The President of South Africa has apologised. So, it should not be a claim of Nigerian government versus South African government. I doubt if there will be any relief from that. But if it is a Nigerian as an individual, who suffered losses and damages, he can even decide to sue the state of South Africa for negligence and lack of protection. Nigerian government can support them to ask for claims and damages.
But the truth has to be told. I have seen the issue in South Africa many years back. The last time I went there, and I saw things happening there, I have never been encouraged to go again. First, it is envy of Nigerians. We are enterprising. The South Africans would have been in a type of business and just managing to run it but when Nigerians come and engage in same business, they change it and make money.
Their way of life (South Africans) is like the Europeans. They have mortgage culture system so they don’t need large money to survive because certain necessities of life have been provided by the government. But when Nigerians go there, they work twice more than the South Africans and make more money than they. The locals close early and go home to enjoy but as a foreigner, a Nigerian would work three times harder than the average locals to be able to send money home. I have seen South Africans complain how and where Nigerians get lots of money they spend.
They envy and keep wondering whereas Nigerians are doing the same legitimate jobs the locals are doing over there yet they are envious of us. The other part is the criminal aspect, which is drugs and it happens in other countries too. It’s everywhere but it’s the security agencies of that country that need to rise to the occasion. I blame the South Africans for them to use excuse that some Nigerians are involved in crime.
For them saying that, it means they are admitting their inadequacies. The security agencies should be able to address that and not allow it to escalate to what happened but that is also if the security agencies have not been compromised as part of them. I saw these things happening on small level until it got to what happened.
Former vice president, Atiku Abubakar, has decided to appeal the tribunal judgement. What are his chances?
It is his constitutional right to go to the Supreme Court and it’s good for him to do that. But it’s an appeal dead on arrival. Certain new rules and pronouncements that will advance the position of our law will come out from that upon which we can improve our electoral process in the future. There are new things coming in, such as server and card readers. I encourage him to go on appeal. After all, the present president went to the Supreme Court three times.
There must be substantial non-compliance and where you alleged issue of corrupt practices, it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubts. It’s a tall order, you must have overwhelming evidence that even if tribunal agrees with you, the question will still be if it will be sufficient to declare the return of somebody null and void. His complaint in some areas may be justified, but is it what tribunal found sufficient to nullify the result of the election? Certainly, the answer is no, especially when you look at the margin.
One of the issues of contention is whether the president is academically qualified to contest.
I don’t know why we waste our time. What does the constitution say? The constitution says ‘equivalent’ of somebody, who passed thorough secondary; it did not say he must have school certificate. What we should do is to amend that part of the constitution and say for anybody, who wants to be the president of Nigeria, he must be a graduate. We should be specific.
