The senator representing Bayelsa West Senatorial District, Senator Henry Seriake Dickson recently attributed the genesis of the country’s insecurity challenges to the lack of willpower on the part of President Muhammadu Buhari.
Dickson, the immediate past governor of Bayelsa State, discussed the state of the nation as a guest on Focus Nigeria, the morning interview programme on the African Independent Television (AIT).
The full interview is presented below:
Where are we now as a nation?
Thank you for inviting me and let me appreciate what you and your colleagues in the Fourth Estate of the Realm are doing in deepening and strengthening democracy.
Democracy is about conversation. Democracy is about dialogue. It is about arguing sometimes. It is about agreeing and disagreeing but all done in the national interest. And that is why you heard the conversation going through the caucuses of the wonderful gentlemen and patriots of our colleagues doing their best.
Now, in the country, we are going through trying times. There is no doubt about it. And it is a combination of a lot of factors. Factors that are economic; those that have to do with the breakdown of law and order; threat to national security and stability. And then also, things that have to do with the foundation of the country, structure of the country. The constitutional system that we are operating in the country. So, it is the combination of a lot of things.
And it is good to focus on the solution because the blame game is not helpful.
But perhaps it could lead us to the source of the problem…
Even at that, we need to be very clear about whom to blame. The President, Commander-in-Chief and the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC). They are running the Federal Government, I mean the Executive arm. They are in majority in the National Assembly. So, we should be very clear about that even though in the national interest we don’t want to do the blame game. The buck stops on the President’s table, especially on matters of security and economy.
And I have always taken the view since 2015 again and again that, when we are discussing issues of national security and national economy, that we should forget partisanship. And like I said even if we do so in the national interest, we should be clear about where the buck stops. So, the President has to take responsibility. Presidency should take the leadership. And talking about leadership and what is not done, and not being done, let me remind all of us that often times, the President is not given that credit. I was governor, you know until recently. The way and manner the President took leadership on salvaging the country that was in distress between 2015 and even up to 2018, it is a miracle that this country didn’t collapse. And I know what I am saying.
Even as governor of a state that people think was having derivation fund in the country, number three or number four, depending on what happens, I couldn’t pay salaries. State governments were struggling.
The Federal Government itself was not at ease because of combination of some factors. Oil price slump. The security situation in Niger Delta at the time and then the change of government that made a lot of investors to be skeptical and a number of them then pulled out. And then the new government talking of corruption bla… bla… and everybody was branded. So, a lot of people were scared and the economy collapsed.
Then the President took leadership. That is the point I am making. He took leadership and issued out bailout fund to enable states to survive. Only one or two states on their own could have managed that period. There would have been a national disaster and catastrophe. This country could have had a nationwide civil unrest.
But it appears the situation is worse now with the printing of money and a fellow governor complaining the printing of money and huge debt are a huge trap that could pull the country down.
I’m coming to that. They did that with the presidential leadership and National Economic Council chaired by the vice-president, and working with the Governor’s Forum, approved also Paris Club refunds. That enabled states to stabilize and it was effectively put into use. The Americans call it the power of the bully pulpit. It was effectively put to use.
Now, we need presidential leadership, to talk about the issue of constitutional reform, which is at the foundation of a lot of the distortions we now see. Because we have a system in the 1979 presidential Constitution where too much powers are given to the centre to the detriment of the so-called federating units and local governments.
And by the way, by elite consensus, the local government don’t function now across party lines.
Is it by elite consensus or governors consensus?
Well, elite consensus. Let’s put it that way.
Is it not the governors that are the problem with the local government administration?
It’s elite consensus and that is why you need to do constitutional reforms and restructuring. Some will even be saying something as ridiculous as, they don’t know what restructuring means. For God’s sake, if you didn’t know what restructuring means, why did APC put it in their constitution? When they were saying in their constitution that they would restructure the country, what did they mean? Were they talking about a concept they didn’t understand or Nigerians cannot relate to?
There are several elements in restructuring such as devolution, the form of government, revenue allocation, etc.
What you are saying is that the way and manner the president intervened at the time we had recessed the economy to pull it back, he should also do so at the political level?
He should do so and exercise presidential leadership. When the Americans broke away from the colonial powers in 1777, 1778, they created the equivalent of a monarchy by means of executive presidency. The presidential system that we operate is a quasi-monarchical system with executive powers and limited control. The president is the commander-in-chief. He’s the leader of the country. But the founding fathers of the American nation tried to put some checks and balances, separation of powers, impeachment, etc.
So the president of Nigeria has enormous powers. He cannot pull back and be in a shell and not show leadership. He has to come and use the power of bully pulpit to rally the nation together. Bully pulpit means putting the influence of presidential power and authority to an appropriate cause.
I want you to give in to a specific example of the possible use of the bully pulpit…
Yes, using the bully pulpit, the president’s party had done a very exhaustive job in the area of restructuring. At least, one component of it: Devolution of powers. They rightly fulfilled what they promised in their constitution by setting up a committee headed by the Governor of Kaduna State, Nasir El-Rufai with Senator Adetunmbi as secretary and other members. They did exhaustive work. They went as far as drafting legislations. What we need is presidential leadership. The President and his party promised restructuring. The President’s party campaigned on it. The President’s party has majority in the National Assembly and the President’s party has brought a roadmap for that. If you devolve as proposed even by APC, you won’t have a situation where governors will be crying everyday with hands on their heads like widows. Crying because they are helpless in the area of protecting the citizens of their states like Governor Ortom is crying every day, like the Governor of Niger and Ondo States.
Well, Ortom has said he will cry no more. He has empowered 2,000 vigilantes and said the people will protect themselves. The governors are not as powerless as we believe…
No, no. Instead of having all these regional security outfits like Amotekun, Ebube Agu, what the President should do, by showing leadership, is by drafting a legislation, and presenting an executive bill. He should rally his party. His party has a comfortable majority in the National Assembly. For example, he takes up the issue of herdsmen terrorising the communities, not only condemning it. He has to match his words with action and back it with political leadership and executive bill clearly outlawing open grazing in Nigeria.
Is open grazing not an issue of responsibility of states?
No, you are talking of national security. Instead of allowing states to come up with various security outfits with associated insinuation and in this age of social media and fake news, people come up with stories that can inflame the nation. That is why presidential leadership is important.
That report by the Nasir El-Rufai committee also recommended the creation of state police. Are you saying the president should adopt that report, hand it over to the attorney-general, perhaps after the Federal Executive Council would have deliberated on it and send it as a bill to the National Assembly?
The President could have done that long ago. And I have been talking on that even before the report was submitted. I said, look, the magnitude of the issue we are dealing with is such that you cannot afford to say, oh the President is not a law-making arm. Let the parliamentarians, lawmakers constituents put pressure on their people and so. No, it is never done. From pre-independence and now, even during the colonial masters, they were the people organizing Nigerian political leaders, midwifing conferences, moderating. And the President, not as a partisan politician, but as leader of the country, has a duty to do that. If the President has shown leadership on the area of restructuring, even on devolution, which is not co-terminus with restructuring. Restructuring is a much bigger and wider concept but it also has some elements of devolution. So, if we have consensus on devolution… Now we have consensus on devolution. Two weeks ago or so, the North-east governors, it was in the news, because of their helplessness as governors, came together. The people who were hitherto opposed to the idea of state police, in several of our meetings at the Governors’ Forum between 2012 and 2020 when I left, I saw the body language. I saw the argument. They were opposed to it. But now, all of them unanimously saying, we support the state police. The governors of the North-west too, is it el-Rufai, is it Masari, even former presidents of the country, Obasanjo said, look, go to restructuring to save the country. IBB says, go to restructuring. I think to some degree, even General Abdulsalami. Look, you can’t be the only one right Mr. President and all these people are wrong. No, it cannot happen.
It takes all of us to build and rebuild this country. We are all equal stakeholders in this Nigerian project. And when all stakeholders, every nationality group, civil society group and everybody is saying restructuring, you can’t be the only one right. Restructuring does not mean dismemberment of Nigeria. I have said it in several lectures. Those who say restructure Nigeria are trying to avoid what we are going through now. Give this power back to the people. Let them hold their governors and others accountable when they fail. You still retain the capacity to deal with issues that only the Federal Government can deal with.
Now, we have a situation where the Federal Government is over burdened with activities, with powers it cannot utilise effectively. It is not in a position to do so. Now the Federal Government is building culverts in communities. Federal Government is building walkways in communities. Federal Government is distributing toilet rolls in communities. Federal Government is doing N-Power to market women, feeding students and so on. Federal Government has veered off from its primary and essential roles, which are the main things that keep us as a nation, that has to do with our pride as a people and the largest African nation. And some of us are passionate about that as Pan-Africans.
In the absence of a Presidential initiative plan, the matter rests with the National Assembly. There is an ongoing process to amend the Constitution. Some devolution of powers process has failed in the past. Can the National Assembly (NASS) set up a powerful committee to push through the devolution of power?
Well, I think there are positive signs. Most of these things have to do with personal and future of a people -restructuring. It would be easier, if the President were to use bully pulpit and rally his party together. And I proposed that, look, you have that report before you by your party. Okay. You have an attorney-general, a close person, I suppose. You have the vice-president, a seasoned lawyer. You can put a team together at the executive level. You can call the leadership of your party in the National Assembly. I am not talking about us in the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP). No, no. If he does that, that is nationalistic and it would be appreciated. But you can start with that within your party, say, thank you gentlemen. This is an exhaustive report. Look at it. And if the President says, look, I want this discussed in the National Assembly, it could be helpful. He has never said that. The ongoing process is there at the Senate, and the number, you know I came late. The Senate president and the deputy Senate president were gracious. I am a member and I attended some of the meetings. And like I said, last week, I am pleased with the calibre of the people we have with their experiences as the former governors, former this and former that. And I believe if we aggregate all of this, we should be able to draw the minimum national interest.
Are you pleased with the speed because it is a long time that the committee was inaugurated and we have not seen the committee call for memorandum?
Well, I think the deputy Senate president, who is the chairman -I am speaking for neither the Senate nor the committee- But I am talking about what I noticed. The Senate president is giving leadership and everybody is supportive. And if we move fast enough, we should be able to resolve some of these issues. And this is why, even now, it is not too late for the President to say, look, I have heard too much cry on this issue
He could summon the leadership of the National Assembly…
He should summon the leadership of his party in the National Assembly. If he wants to broaden it, fine and good. He can even discuss it at the National Council of State meeting. That is why we have all those organs. And he has not done that and we should encourage and ask him to do that because that would fasten it because at the end, all of us are saying this, all of us are doing what we are doing in the national interest.
We don’t have to agree because some people out of ignorance will say, oh, there are so many views about restructuring. For God’s sake, let there be more views. The more the merrier. Democracy is a market place of ideas. You come with your own, I come with my own. And this idea of National Assembly, national discourse and dialogue, is not a monologue. No! We shouldn’t bother ourselves when people disagree. I come with the plight of my people from where I come from. You come with yours. He comes from Sokoto, you come from Ogun. When we gather with all these intrigues and challenges, we dissolve it. All of us, we dissolve it and brew what will come out of it as national consensus. You can’t have everything. People should come with an open mind. We panel beat it, consult, dialogue, give and take in the national interest. That is how nations are built. Nations are built not as a result of failure to engage. Or failure to undertake a serious assignment like this and say, oh, I don’t know the meaning of this. You don’t know the meaning. So, why is somebody talking about it?
Just as with the Electoral Act, Nigerians are concerned that it is getting too close to another general election and the Constitution amendment too. People are worried including the international community that it is getting too close to another general election, because it’s a long process. It has to go to the states and come back…
(Cuts in) Well, what I see about the Electoral Act amendments. Again, I’m in the committee chaired by the former governor of Kano State, very experienced, with a lot of colleagues who know what they are doing. I think what is happening is that those issues in the electoral amendment that are constitutional. You know some of the issues are constitutional and you need to amend the constitution. This is why you need the broadest possible coalition and force to push it through. And no one can do it more than the President. Now those electoral issues that are constitutional would come to the Constitution Amendment Committee. They are being looked at. At least, I have read some of the reports. I think we are on course. Can’t we fast track it? Yes, we need to? Should the civil society and other interested groups put more pressure on us, all the representatives, all members of the National Assembly and also the President? Mind you, it was the President who refused to sign. Okay? He should have signed and then send the amendment therein to us.
But they brought the excuse that it was too late. If it was too late and we are genuinely concerned about deepening our democracy, he could have signed it. Mind you, somebody deepened democracy to introduce card reader in 2015. If this President had that view and commitment to broaden our democracy, this is two years they have been in power. You must make sacrifice for the country. Country is nothing without sacrifice on part of the leaders and on the part of the citizens. That is part of what we are talking about.
There are calls for some form of national conference different from the constitutional amendment process in the National Assembly. Chief Afe Babalola said he is gathering some elders to dialogue. Some people have said we don’t even need an amendment. Where do you stand in all these?
Well, first of all, I am not aware of the meeting some elders are calling. I have heard about it and I found the reaction of the government to it very ridiculous. I found it panicky, unnecessarily panicky and it is ridiculous. It is the fundamental right of Nigerians, whether they are young people, whether they are old people, whether they are elder statesmen or elder stateswomen to meet and talk about the governance of their country. The country is ours. And all of us are servants of the people. So, Nigerians have the right to meet under whatever name.
The only thing you can demand is that any suggestions coming should be constructive and should be geared towards solving the national dilemma. But to say that because elders are meeting under whatever name and you brand them as one kind, for me, it is highly unfortunate. We must have a democracy. And as I said, it is a marketplace of ideas. People can criticise, people can support and at the end of the day, the majority will have their way and the minority must also have their say. And if elders don’t meet to talk now, when do you expect them to talk? And which is why, it is to avoid this kind of contradictory things going on that, we called for presidential leadership. We have talked about that. I am not in support of any other national conference. No! You already have a National Assembly according to the constitution. I am one of those who feel this constitution is fundamentally flawed in so many ways. The over-centralization of power at the centre to the detriment of the people. The constitution as presently constituted is not such that can promote productivity. Too much waste. Even the form of government we are running, I disagree. I am a participant in the presidential system. Okay? But I disagree with it fundamentally. I believe that the 1978 Constituent Assembly, and the constitution that came out of it, the 1999 Constitution were wrong in taking us away from what our founding fathers agreed because of our heterogenous nature, multi ethnicity… This diversity is good for us.
The idea behind, as we are told, is that a strong centre, a strong president will…
This is why we are where we are. The strong man syndrome, the strong centre syndrome has not helped, has collapsed. Take for instance, since the 80s, they have destroyed the Police. Now, we are talking that there is no security. A nation cannot be secured if the Police, which is the frontline law and order agency has collapsed. It is not attended to. It is not funded. It was neglected, and now, they keep shifting away the power of Police. They would take Road Safety away from it; They will take NDLEA from it; They will take away Civil Defence from it; they will take EFCC away from it. EFCC is exercising powers of the Police. Now, you don’t fund them, you don’t train them, and this is the organ that has presence in every community. No vehicle, no communication gadget, poorly paid, poorly managed, ignored, low morale. You can’t have security.
Meanwhile, the constitution system says, Federal Police. But you can’t fund them. You can’t even fuel their vehicles. The reason that has happened is because the Federal Government is over burdened with things they shouldn’t be concerned with. And our founding fathers knew that. And that was why they decentralised governance. So, the Eastern region could drive development at their own pace. The Western region could drive development at their own pace and the Northern region could drive development and later the Mid-West…. The core duties of the federation, you can’t perform them. Number one: national security, law and order. Two: foreign affairs and diplomacy. When was the last time Nigeria acquired embassy buildings? Before this 1999 Constitution. This is why we say, restructure Nigeria. We are all believers in a one big Nigerian nation. And I said over and over that if it were possible, we want Nigeria to be even bigger because we need a big African nation that can play at the global level.
That’s the argument now. That restructuring, can the amendments guarantee it. You made mention of the 1963 Constitution, which some people are saying for us to get there, we need an entirely new Constitution…
I agree. I was in the House of Representatives in 2007. I was the Chairman, Justice Committee at that time before I went to be governor in Bayelsa State. I caused it that all the efforts on an amendment by the National Assembly from that time till now has been…well, they have brought some goods here and there, but the efforts have not been holistic enough, not fundamental enough to measure our character. So, now that people are talking about new constitution, if we build consensus, the National Assembly is still to pass it. That is why I am calling on the President to show leadership.
Take, for example, specific terms because you are asking for specificity. On ranching, the herdsmen crisis is one matter that has pushed Nigeria to the borderline. And this is the reason people are talking about conspiracy theories. Islamisation agenda, Fulanisation agenda, President is this, President is that. Even if it is not true because we should be very careful in drawing those conclusions about the leader of the country. But if it is not true, the perception that these are your kinsmen and not enough actions are being taken, can lead to all kinds of insinuations. In this age of social media, insinuation can set this country ablaze. Action needed. We need an executive bill to stop open grazing thing in the country as a national security item. It is not for the governor of Benue. It is not for the governor of any state.
But nothing stops the governors some governors have done that. Benue, Ekiti …
We have not seen enough of it. This is why presidential leadership is important. You know, if the President comes out and say, no, no, gentlemen, I don’t want this. This country is going like this, like this. Now set up a committee, fine tune a law, a legislation. I will prefer that kind of effort to be led by the executive to underscore the national importance.
A law that wants to take into consideration how to transform open grazing to another form…
That is what I am saying. It is two things. That is why it is not working in the states. I didn’t do that in Bayelsa. Rather, I built abattoir, built a market, built a Police Post so I can register the herdsmen with their cattle and protect them. And I also warned them that anybody who came to Bayelsa with weapon, arrest them. A committee that had Fulani herdsmen, both the dealers and the traders with the security people and the natives from the area (was set up). And it was working. And I said, you all go to a particular place.
There is a new anti-grazing law in Bayelsa. Does that mean your initiative didn’t work?
Well, I don’t want to speak on Bayelsa. What I am saying is that, when you do that law of banning, and these people, mind you, herding is an economic activity. So you are dealing with an economic problem also that has become a security problem because of management. If you say, don’t graze. And they are already in your state, where do you want them to be? What do you want them to do? This is why fair presidential impartial judgement and leadership are involved because you need to make out money to fund establishment of ranches, not RUGA, not colony. That was a bad idea, dead on arrival because of the conceptualization and presentation.
It is a business. If CBN makes fund available today, governors will key into it. State governments would own the ranches. State governments own ranches. There are businessmen who can access funds and create ranches. It is an economic activity. And any herder coming into a state can put his cattle there, be registered, be protected, there is water for them and for the cattle. There is security for them and the cattle. And there is a market for them also. It is an integrated development.
But must it be a state government initiative?
It is not state government initiative because no state government can fund it. That was why I couldn’t implement Plan B. You see, I even brought some grass from Kaduna to plant, special grass. I did the Pilot thing. But it needs a lot of money to be able to have several hectares and have a fence and put all the things. I put some and it was working for us. We didn’t have any clashes. So, you need the President to have a law to ban open grazing and back it up with a federally generated funds that businessmen, states, local governments could access
The concern I raised earlier was that even in the National Assembly, there was an attempt to ban open grazing, but we were told that it is in the purview of the states…
No. It is a national security concern. Recently, two or three weeks ago, in the Senate, there was a Bill that was passed, sponsored by the former governor of Nasarawa, Senator Abdullahi Adamu, which is seeking to create a fund from which those who want money to establish ranches and so on can obtain. So, if it is beyond the power of the National Assembly, why did we pass that law? It falls under the power of the Federal Government. What I have always referred to as the power of bully pulpit. You rally the country solve an emergency national problem. If you allow states to ban or not ban… Because it is existential, people are dying. People can’t go to farm. Some people are angry. Sentiments arise. If you allow it, some people will say, don’t enter our states. And you can’t do that because by the constitution, there is freedom of movement across West Africa -the ECOWAS Protocol, which was why I didn’t go that route. But what can stem the tide is presidential intervention. If the President says says, look, look, gentlemen, fine tune a law, get your leadership involved, your attorney-general and everybody and the vice-president who is the chairman of the National Economic Council (NEC), because this is an economic issue. Look, you can say anything. It is the genesis or part of it. There are so many theories. The Lake Chad is drying. Not many people know that the Lake Chad supports 25 to 30 million livelihoods. It is a security issue. The Lake Chad and the Sahel regions have become hotbed of insurgency. Whether you are talking of Boko Haram, whether you are talking of ISWAP and several groups that are drawing inspiration from them.
Is there a link between the restructuring you are proposing and end to the raging insecurity? In other words, can it help to stem the tide?
Oh yes, if the President gives leadership. We can achieve devolution, for example, which is a component of restructuring. As I said, restructuring is a bigger terrain. It includes, for example, discussion about the forms of government. Mind you, I have said I don’t believe in the presidential system of government. I believe we should have gone the way of India and have parliamentary system. You know why? The country would not be subjected to all these forms of ethnic or religious manipulations. When somebody is wrong, somebody is bad, somebody is incompetent, somebody is doing things antithetical to the national interest, and if you raise anything, they play the religious card. They play the ethnic card. You couldn’t do that under Tafawa Balewa because everybody was elected their representatives.
There is no time they gathered the whole of Nigeria, 200 million people with 500 ethnic groups. And when you do this, all this playing to the gallery and using religious sentiments to blackmail people who don’t support you. There are things going on in the country, which didn’t happen during the First Republic because everybody elected their parliamentarians. Every party elected their candidates from everywhere. If you are the leader in the majority party, you rule the government. And they know what is important. Not only is it cheaper to run, you have the Prime Minister on his feet every day. He would have to be part of the debate. Oh yes. He has to lead it.
So, all that is going on is because of the absence of presidential and leadership initiatives that I am shouting and shouting about, you can’t have it in a parliamentary system. But you see, the Americans created, while they ran away from the British colonial monarchy, they created a monarchy of their own in the form of executive presidency. Then they were worried. They say, this man can also be like the king or queen. Then they said, it is okay, they now put impeachment. They put all these things. We imported a system that does not suit us.
We need a parliamentary system where everybody elects their legislators. They come to the parliament. And you see one other terrible thing we have done and I reminded the Senate. This country is a nation of ethnic nationalities. It is a nation of over 250 ethnic nationalities, a nation of proud African kingdoms, some of which had existed for thousands of years. The British came, the UAC, Lord Lugard later, and using the Constabulary, whether you are talking of the Constabulary of the Niger Coast Protectorate, or our own or Lagos Constabulary, they used all these people to harass the kings, sign treaties, force them into subjugation one by one. All the kingdoms in Nigeria are subjugated. Some even pillaged like Benin. This is the history. Look, in the current constitution, have you given roles to the traditional rulers, the real owners of Nigeria? If you look at the people who signed the amalgamation document, you will see the kings.
So, there is no way we can run the Nigerian society without roles for the people who were the real constituents in the past, is that what you are saying?
Yes, look at Kanem Bornu. It has existed for thousands of years. When the British came, they were accessing them from Tripoli and some other places. They met El-Kanemi on his throne, wrote letters to them helping the British to move around. The same thing when the Fulani Jihad had taken root, the Sarkin Musulumi, not the Sultan, it was Lugard that called them Sultan, the Sarkin Musulumi was there on his throne, administering territories, meeting people and serving his people. We have forgotten the Oba of Benin, Lagos, 1851. They took over, signed treaties. They went everywhere like that. You know what happened in Bayelsa when the Akasa reigned and then Jaja of Opobo or Nana Itsekiri. They did it all like that across the country. We need a role for them to play. We cannot wish them away just like that.
We need Presidential leadership on national security. The President should convene an expanded meeting of the National Council of States. He should go beyond the required number. The entire leadership of the National Assembly, bring the entire Judiciary leadership, and bring former presidents and leaders of Nigeria with all the governors. And even former vice presidents, sit down with the Service Chiefs and analyse this. And then address the nation. And in that address, he must rouse patriotism because people have lost faith in Nigeria. We have challenges and we are trying to address it. Don’t misunderstand the government. Then the President should visit the regions. All the regions beginning with the South-east and ask to meet all the traditional rulers and the leaders of the South-East. And leave there and go round all other regions. That is what I call Presidential leadership and authority.